In this episode, vocal coach Norwood reveals how his business, Transitions Voice Lab, flourished after he made one important change to his marketing strategy. Norwood also explains how to identify your USP as a singing teacher, how to juggle teaching and a pro singing career and ways to make your studio welcoming to the LGBTQ+ community.
- Norwood studied with several top vocal coaches and BAST Training. His studies gave him a solid foundation for creating his own studio.
- If you’re starting out as a singing teacher, identify what sets you apart from your peers. Do you have a specific skill? Are you part of a community that could benefit from your expertise? When it comes to marketing and branding, don’t cast a wide net; be specific.
- Transitions Voice Lab also caters to transgender students who want to work on their speaking voice, singing voice – or both.
- Norwood has built a safe teaching space where all students can feel understood, supported and welcome.
- Top tip: To ensure transgender students feel welcome, add your pronouns to your website and social media. This will send a clear message that you are respectful of people who are transgender.
‘I learned things from that course that I didn’t even know about before and use them in every lesson I teach now’
‘I want them to feel that they are seen and that we will take care of them’
‘You need a willingness to learn and to set your ego aside‘
‘BAST was so helpful in finding out the physicality of my voice’
RAab Stevenson kimadproductions.com/?page_id=663
Line Hilton linehilton.com/voice-performance-coaching
BAST Training basttraining.com/bast-course-description
ABOUT THE GUEST
Norwood is a BAST-certified professional vocal coach and a Vocal Health First Aider, international pop artist, actor, emcee and public speaker.
As the co-founder of Transitions Voice Lab, Norwood is dedicated to providing professional and affordable vocal training for people of all ages, genders, and skill levels. He offers coaching for both singers and people looking to improve their speaking voice.
Transitions Voice Lab is an LGBTQ+ affirming company that prides itself on being inclusive and welcoming to people from all walks of life.
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Bronwyn Bidwell 00:06
Hi, it’s Bronwyn here and welcome to the latest episode of Singing Teachers Talk. Our guest today is a pop artist, vocal coach and vocal first aider. He’s also a former BAST student and the co-founder of Transitions Voice Lab. So welcome to the show Norwood.
Hello, thank you so much for having me. I’m very excited to be here.
Bronwyn Bidwell 00:26
So how would things go for you in Atlanta there? How are you back up teaching face to face? Or what’s the situation for you there?
Well, I’m still currently teaching virtually, which has actually worked out to be really great for me. So pre-pandemic, I was teaching about half virtual and half in person. But I didn’t have a good studio space. So my selling point was, I would come to the student, which was great for them, you know, because very convenient, I come to their home or whatever. But I found it to be not so great for me because it meant a lot of travel time for me. And a lot of, especially in Atlanta. For those of you who have been here our traffic is some of the worst in the country. And so, going across town, especially certain times of day, could take me over an hour. So that’s an hour I could have spent teaching someone else. So then when COVID happened and everything had to transition very quickly to all being virtual, I actually found that I liked it a lot better, because now I’ve got my studio space set up in my house, and I’ve got my ring light, and I’ve got you know, my sound system and my webcam and everything. And it’s just so much more convenient for everyone involved. So yeah, long answer that question, but things are things are getting better. In general here. Cases are starting to go down again. Finally. We’re starting to have a little bit more, I’m seeing a little bit more gigs and performance opportunities, starting to slowly come back. So that’s nice.
Bronwyn Bidwell 01:52
So I know you’ve been busy, obviously, you’ve been busy teaching, but you’ve also been busy doing some, some recording. So tell us about your single that’s just come out.
Yeah, so I just dropped a new single this past week as of this recording called “Morning Light”. And it is the second single I’ve released this year. And it’s actually pretty interesting, because I’ve recorded both of these singles with a producer friend of mine, who happens to live in London. And so we’ve managed to do this virtually through the magic of technology, where we would have virtual writing sessions on Zoom. And I went to a local studio here that my friend has to lay down the vocals. And my producer was again on Zoom or FaceTime kind of in on the session and giving feedback. And then we just send all the raw files to him and he does all the mixing and sends it all back. And it’s really been amazing. But um, but “Morning Light” is it’s my new single. And the idea behind it was my first single post pandemic was called “Masquerade”. And it was a little more serious was about feeling lonely and trying to find love and dating and relationships when we have this literal, you know, mask in between us, but also, you know, just everything that came along with that, you know, is it safe to date? Can we go inside to a restaurant? Can we go outside? Do we wear a mask the whole time? It was this, that whole thing was very confusing last year. So that first song was about that. The second one, I wanted to be a little bit more fun and a little bit more carefree. You know, we’ve all had a very tough year and a half. So I want to just a song that would make people feel happy and just want to dance and get on, you know, get out on the dance floor. So that’s what “Morning Light” is to me.
Bronwyn Bidwell 03:32
And so how do you balance your singing work and your singing career with your teaching commitments?
So that’s been a bit of a challenge. What I’ve found now that is working pretty well for me is I have designated teaching days. So I teach Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays, I keep my schedule pretty free. So I can teach at you know, almost any time during those days. And then I have the weekends free for personal time. And you know, again, shows are starting to come back. Those are usually on the weekends. And then I have Monday and Friday that I can kind of use those those flex days for preparing for a show or writing a song or having a writing session going into the studio, those sorts of things. So it’s kind of a three days on with the singing, teaching, and then four days on with the music stuff, and hopefully a little personal time mixed in there. And that seems to be working pretty well for me.
Bronwyn Bidwell 04:25
And where did your singing journey start? What’s your your musical background?
So it started way back when I was like 10 or 11 years old. I went, my parents signed me up for a musical theater, summer camp. Because I never done any kind of singing training or theater, but I was I was that kid that would always run around the house singing songs from the latest Disney movie. And so they signed me up for that turned out I really enjoyed it and had a bit of a knack for it. And so from there I started taking voice lessons and then I started singing in church and doing local community theater productions and things like that. And then fast forward to when I was 18, I met my manager who I am still working with, Jayne. And she and I started working together with me as a solo artist, and kind of creating the Norwood that I am today when I’m on stage. So it’s been a long journey, but it’s been very good.
Bronwyn Bidwell 05:20
And so then when did you decide to try vocal coaching as well, and what brought you to teaching?
So I think what made me start to think about that was, I want to say it was about six or seven years ago. There were some young singers who had come in contact with through through some, like singing competitions that I had helped judge or things like that locally. And these singers in their parents had been like, oh, well, we love your voice, you know? Would you be willing to teach them lessons? And at first, I was like, oh, you know, I’m not really interested. I don’t really have time. I don’t think I know how to do that. But then finally, I was like, okay, sure, I’ll give it a try. Like, if you have somewhere that I can come since I don’t have a studio space, if you have somewhere I can come and you know, teach a few lessons once a week, I’ll give it a try. So for a while, that’s what I did. It was just a few students, once a week, back to back one afternoon. And slowly I started to gain a little bit more confidence. And then I got some further education, with BAST and with other programs, in the Vocal Health First Aiders, and just whatever kind of online curriculum I could find, to learn more about how to be a good singing teacher. And then from there, it’s slowly as these things do just gradually built, where I got more and more clients. And then as I said earlier, once it all went virtual, that’s when things really started to actually explode for me as far as the number of students I have, that has really blown up now that I’m virtual, I can, you know, teach students from anywhere, which really has opened things up instead of just this small section of my state. Now, it’s, I have students all over the country. So I’ve found that to be a very, very helpful thing that has happened.
Bronwyn Bidwell 07:07
And so you mentioned you studied with BAST, how did you hear about the course? And how did you find it? Because I presume you did the online version of the BAST course.
Yeah, so I did the online version. I heard about it kind of a roundabout way. So I had taken a few years ago, I’d taken voice lessons from a fantastic coach here in Atlanta called Rob Stevenson. And he knew that I was interested in teaching, I was starting to teach, and he said, “Hey, if you’re wanting to teach, there’s this lady that I’ve learned from Line Hilton in the UK. And she kind of specializes in helping to teach singing teachers how to be better singing teachers with this thing called BAST.” So he introduced me to that. From there, I started working one on one with Line. And then I went ahead and started doing the BAST program at the same time. And you know, I found it to be incredibly helpful. I learned so much from that course, that I didn’t even know about before. And it has definitely made its way into every single one of the lessons that I’ve been teaching since. So I mean, I highly recommend to anyone that’s interested and is, you know, maybe on the fence about whether or not they should do the online course, it is well worth it. Absolutely, they should do it.
Bronwyn Bidwell 08:15
Tell us about your studio, tell us about its ethos and the kinds of students that you can you teach?
Sure, so the studio is transition’s voice lab, and we aim to have a very open and inclusive virtual studio space. So I’m a gay man. And I would like to cater to the LGBTQ+ community, not to say that all of my students are in that community, I have a lot of straight and ally students. But, for a lot of people, particularly transgender people, it can be… it’s already intimidating to step into a voice studio, especially if you’ve never sang before, or had, you know, speech work before. But then if you’re someone who’s transgender, and is maybe having a lot of dysphoria around your voice, and it feels very inauthentic to you, and very awkward, it’s a very vulnerable thing. So I wanted to create a space that was very open for people of all genders and all expressions to come and learn how to sing or to help with their voice with their speaking voice, if that’s what they wanted. So that’s where transitions voice lab came about. And I’m really happy to say that I think we’re doing a good job of keeping that open environment, that welcoming environment for every student.
Bronwyn Bidwell 09:32
Yeah, it’s really interesting, isn’t it? Because when we talk about singing, we always think about putting your own mark on the song or expressing yourself. And then actually when it comes to teaching, there is also a way where you can put your own mark on a studio by who you teach or what you choose to teach, etc. How you market yourself. It’s interesting that you can also show yourself through through teaching as well.
Absolutely. And I think that’s you know, it’s a great point for teachers who are starting their own studio is to just try to figure out what it is that makes you different as a teacher, maybe it’s like me, and you’re a part of a certain community that maybe is underrepresented. Maybe you specialize in a very specific niche or genre that you know, people might be seeking out, maybe you’re really, really good at teaching one aspect of singing, like, you’re the best at teaching how to release tension in the voice, or you’re the best at diagnosing XY or Z, you know, and maybe making that a feature, putting that towards the forefront. Because for a long time, I was trying to cast a very wide net and trying to like, okay, I can teach kids and I can teach adults and I can teach this person I can teach that I can teach anybody anything right, you know, but you find that you actually don’t attract as many people that way. So it wasn’t until I start to get more specific, and be like, Okay, well, I can still teach a wide range of people. But I’m going to focus my marketing and my approach on a specific group of people, people within the queer community, you know, that that I relate to, that I have something in common with, and put more of my efforts into helping them find me. And again, a lot of my students aren’t in that community, but a lot are and it’s been a nice mix that have come from that I’ve found more success in having that focus, instead of, you know, trying to be a, what do they say, a jack of all trades, master of none, instead of focusing down more as helped.
Bronwyn Bidwell 11:22
And so with transitions, did you have a moment where you were like, I’m gonna sit down and plan this, this is the studio that I want to create. I’ve reached this point where I understand, you know, my sort of idea of the studio wants to create, or did it just sort of all happen organically, and then you turn around and look to it, and we go, this has happened, and I’m sort of surprised that it happened, but it’s fabulous.
It was a little bit closer to the second there was a couple other iterations of branding before I landed on the Transitions Voice Lab, there was a couple other names that I had floated, a couple other, like I said, different markets I was trying to capture before I kind of figured out okay, this is the one that I want to have. And then the co-founder is also my manager, Jayne Madigan, she was really helpful in all that too. She’s a brilliant marketing mind. And so together, we were able to work and figure out okay, what is that niche and able to eventually get it to what it is now. And once we kind of figured out what we want the niche to be, then it was a matter of, okay, how do we redesign the website to reflect this new message, this new mission? How do we change our advertising? What, you know, what does all of this look like? So it even would go down to things like when I have a new student sign up for the first time, the form that they’re presented with, having relevant questions for someone who might be transgender. So asking, what is your gender identity? What are your pronouns? Are you currently on hormone replacement therapy, because that can affect the voice. And just showing that inclusivity from the very beginning, from their very first interaction with us. Showing, okay, this person has at least some understanding of what it’s like to be a transgender person navigating this world. And it seems like, you know, I want them to feel like they are they are seen in that way, and that we’re gonna take care of them.
Bronwyn Bidwell 13:05
And what feedback have you had from some of your students have, they had perhaps less than positive experiences with other vocal coaches, and they’re very sort of delighted that they found you and what what you can offer them, or what’s the feedback been?
A few. Most of them though, I’m the first vocal coach that they’ve come to, for a lot of them. A lot of them, they they will start out by doing a little bit of research on their own, maybe doing watching some YouTube videos on transgender voice therapy, things like this. And usually, after they’ve done that for a while to get to a point where they don’t really feel like they can go any further on their own. And that’s when they’ll start to seek out myself or someone similar to me. But there have been some people that have come in and definitely had negative experiences of either going to a vocal coach, and them not really understanding what it meant to be transgender or being visibly uncomfortable or unfamiliar with interacting with a transgender person, or even misgendering them. I think there has been one where the student had gone to the vocal coach for singing prior to transition. And they found it difficult to continue with them after the transition, because it was difficult for that particular teacher to kind of get on board with what was going on and adjust to it and move forward in their new identity.
Bronwyn Bidwell 14:26
And so in terms of your transgender voice therapy work, what do most students want from you? Are they singers who want help with their singing voice? Or is it more just to do with their speaking voice?
So I’ve actually got an interesting mix of both. So when I first started the branding as transitions voice lab, I thought it was going to be you know, singers in the queer community and then transgender people wanting help with their speaking voice. But there’s actually been quite a bit of overlap. I would say about half of my transgender students also have an interest in singing. So we work on singing voice in conjunction with the speaking voice, and then the other half, haven’t expressed an interest in singing, so we’re just working on speaking voice. And for them, it’s usually about finding a placement for their voice that feels comfortable and natural, but feels more authentically them. So that’s usually, we usually put that in terms of vocal masculine masculinization, or vocal feminization. So trying to have more stereotypically masculine or feminine voice depending on their gender expression.
Bronwyn Bidwell 15:30
And is it a process that takes a while? Do you have to be quite upfront with the student? In that, you know, sometimes people watch a YouTube video and they think that perhaps in a week or two, I’ll see results? I mean, what sort of timeframe do students have to sort of factor in?
Well, just like with, you know, singing lessons it does take time. And the timeframe can vary from person to person. But yes, it takes some time, it takes practice, because there’s lots of things that the student has to learn about lots of things they don’t know, they don’t know. And it’s a lot of things we take from the singing world. So things like respiration, and phonation, things like intonation, how you say, words, how you communicate the language that can have gender markers, all of these things that have to be learned. And that also depends on what their transition is. So if they are taking, say, testosterone, for instance, if they’re a trans man, that will have for most people a lowering of pitch over the course of three to 12 months in the voice. So the pitch part starts to take care of itself. But then you have issues similar to puberty and a young male, where it’s the voice cracking and the changing and the instability and the you know, the swelling of the vocal folds during that time. And then there’s other individual challenges to that, versus if you are a trans woman, and you’re taking estrogen. If you’ve already been through a testosterone fueled puberty, it doesn’t have the same effect. It doesn’t shrink the larynx or the vocal folds back down, rather. And so then it’s, you know, purely technique that we’re working with to get the feminization. So yeah, there’s lots of lots of individual things. And to answer that question, it varies, it depends on the person depends on their transition, what point they’re at in their transition, whether the hormones are involved, or not. All those things come into play, to get them from, where they are now to where they hope to be.
Bronwyn Bidwell 17:23
And do you find the videos that are on YouTube? Do you think they’re helpful in terms of starting the process? Or do you find sometimes they’re actually more of an obstacle in some way?
Well, it’s hard to say definitively because, as you know, on YouTube, anyone can post a video. So I’m sure there are some out there that are not great. However, I have seen some that are very informative, and I’m pretty impressed with, you know, the amount of knowledge they go into and the depth they go into.
Bronwyn Bidwell 17:50
And so what kind of advice would you give a singing teacher who’s interested in either transgender voice therapy, or even just perhaps being more aware and more alert and more educated? Where should they start?
So I would say that it starts with trying to, well, first of all, I would say, being open to critique. So being open to correction, perhaps. So I’m, I feel like a lot of people and I felt this way myself sometimes are a little nervous when we interact with people who are transgender or non binary, because we’re nervous, we’re going to say the wrong thing. We’re nervous, we’re going to use the wrong term, or the wrong words, or the wrong pronouns or what have you. And it’s been my experience that at least most of the people that I’ve interacted with, who fall under that umbrella, are pretty forgiving with that stuff, if they can sense that you’re coming at it from an honest place, like you’re honestly trying to do your best. So for instance, right now, I’m teaching a group class on transgender voice. And I started out the class by saying, I’m going to promise to try my best, but I’m also open to critique. And I want to hear your feedback. Basically, you know, I’m going to do my best as a non transgender person to be respectful and inclusive, and you know, try to say the things that make you comfortable, but if at any point I mess up, please point it out to me, because I want to learn, so a willingness to learn and a willingness to kind of set your ego aside and listen to people that are genuinely going through this, and taking their feelings and their experience into consideration. So that would be number one coming into it with that attitude. And then I would say the simplest thing are pronouns. So you can put your pronouns on your zoom, if you’re doing zoom lessons, you can put your pronouns there as part of your name so I could put nor would he him, you can put them on your website. Even if you’re not actively putting yourself out there as you know, transgender vocal coach or whatever, just by putting your pronouns in your bio on your Twitter or on your website is a great way to signal to people, oh, this person understands that, you know, the pronouns might be different from what that people assume them to be. And so they’re probably going to respect mine. So putting your pronouns out there and then being open with your students when you meet a new student for the first time, you know, “Hi, my name is Norwood. I use he/him pronouns, what are your pronouns?” And it’s a poor important distinction is not to use the phrase preferred pronouns, because that almost makes it seem like it’s kind of a preference that’s kind of willy nilly and can change from day to day. Your pronouns are usually your pronouns, people usually feel like “Oh, I’m, I’m a she/her I’m they/them I’m he/him”, whatever the case may be. And then, as best you can, remembering and respecting those pronouns, we all slip up sometimes, but doing your best. And then I would also say, including that language, in your website, so if you, if you’re wanting to, you know, have more students of all genders, try to include that in your in your verbiage in your website, saying you welcome students of all genders and, you know, gender expressions, or maybe asking your intake forms. You know, what do you what is your gender identity? Are you are you if you’re transgender? Are you currently taking hormones, because as I kind of alluded to earlier, that does have relevance to the voice. And so just kind of showing that inclusivity in small ways, and then if you’re just kind of new to understanding the transgender experience in itself, I would say, try to just kind of do like, we all do, do some online, sleuthing, do some do some research and, you know, find some transgender YouTube creators and watch their videos about what it’s like to be transgender, what is the transition mean, for them, you know, try to just get a feel for it. Or if you happen to know a transgender person in your life, maybe sit down and talk with them, you know, and try to understand a little bit more. I mean, there’s always the danger of we don’t want to, you know, we want to take advantage of people who have been marginalized, they saying, “Tell me about your pain, I want to know all about it, teach me everything”, right? It’s not their job to teach us per se. But some people are more than happy to say, ‘oh, yeah, well, this is what it was like, and this is my experience. And you know, I’m happy to answer your questions”. So if you have that kind of relationship with someone, you know, I would say, definitely take advantage of that and learn from them as best you can.
Bronwyn Bidwell 22:01
And do you find it a particularly rewarding sort of area to focus on?
I do, I find it very rewarding, especially because a lot of the transgender students I’m working with these days. I think almost all of them are in their teens and early 20s. And so they’re young people, and I do enjoy teaching young (people), that age group in general, just because it is such an awkward time for anyone. And it’s such a challenging time. So whenever I see them have a success or work through something difficult, it’s very rewarding for me to know I had a part in that. But yes, it’s very rewarding when I check in with a student and find out. Oh, yeah, my voice has been feeling really great lately. Or, you know, my friend commented how, you know, my voice is sounding more feminine lately. Or, you know, I checked out at the grocery store, and the man said, had a good day, sir. And it felt so good, because, you know, I felt validated. So, you know, little things like that definitely make me feel like okay, this is all this is all worthwhile. This is all worth doing.
Bronwyn Bidwell 23:08
So how does your teaching work influence your own singing and the way you approach singing?
Well, that’s a great question. I actually found that, for instance, doing the BAST course, some a lot of the things I learned in there, I noticed started to creep into my own voice and my understanding of my own voice, and some of my vocal habits. So like, for instance, learning about straw phonation and SOVT’s, and now I’ve got, you know, the, the metal straws and I use them before and after shows, and, you know, I’m the, the weird singer in the band, who’s, you know, standing off to the side, right before we go on stage, but it’s made a difference in in the way my voice feels and performs. So, yeah, that I found that BAST was very helpful in that in learning about just the physicality of how my voice works, because I’d spent so many years just going off of, you know, the perception, what does it feel like? What does it sound like? And to have a better knowledge of, okay, what’s actually going on here? You know, how much air pressure do I have? How much subglottic pressure is there? What’s the vocal pole compression doing? Where’s my resonance right now? Having those little things that I can tune into, for my own rehearsing and performing has really been helpful in I think, getting my voice to a better place. And then also just performing better I don’t have not been… knock on wood have not been getting fatigued as easily when I sing, which has been fabulous.
Bronwyn Bidwell 24:31
And so what do you find is the biggest challenge with teaching then?
I think, right now, one of the biggest challenges is the fact that for me, it’s all virtual. So it is a double edged sword. So while it’s a blessing in terms of convenience, and the much, much larger pool of students that I have available, to me, it is a little bit trickier because certain things are just harder to communicate over zoom. So I would say that’s a little bit tricky, as a vocal coach, and I think also just… For me, it’s sometimes keeping students motivated. Especially the younger they are, you know, young kids kind of lose motivation lose focus on things. So it’s, you know, it’s kind of a constant battle to get people to rehearse and keep them excited. And okay, well, let’s maybe start a new song next week, you know, try to get them excited about something new. Yeah, I would say those are probably the bigger ones right now, for me.
Bronwyn Bidwell 25:22
And I guess, though, one of the positives of online teaching is if you do go on tour, and obviously, perhaps that hasn’t been available to you in the last couple of years. But if you do go on tour whenever that is possible, you could teach while you’re on the road, is that sort of plan?
Absolutely, yes. And so even though I wasn’t doing full time virtual, before COVID, I did have a good group of students locally, that I would teach a few days a week, back in this is 2017/2018. And I went to the UK for several weeks at a time. And so I transitioned them all to virtual during that time. And so I had my iPad with a little piano app on it, I had my computer, and you know, just made it work. It wasn’t quite the same setup I have here. But now I think I’ve got it fine tuned a little bit more where I could maybe bring a small keyboard with me bring a small ring light and really make it work better. But yeah, so that was already something that I was doing. And I’m hoping touring comes back soon. And then yes, that will be the plan is to try to keep as many students on as possible, because I also don’t want to leave them, you know, an a lurch for, you know, for six, eight months, or not months, but weeks at a time, you know.
Bronwyn Bidwell 26:39
What are your plans for the rest of this year and next year? And are there any particular venues in Europe that you would love to play?
Let’s see, for (the) end of this year, I’ve got one more song I’m about to go into the studio to record so that we’ll be releasing before the end of this year. So I’m very excited about that. I’m doing some local shows and things like that nothing big or really noteworthy, just again, starting to tip the toes back into live performance. As things start to reopen. Hopefully next year, the goal would be that COVID as well are under control, knock on wood by next spring, next summer. And I can head over to Europe and spend some time over there. I spent a lot of time over the summer and 2017/’18 and ’19 in Europe and just made a lot of friends and really love it there. So I’m hoping to get back and see all of them. As far as venues. I’m hoping to perform at a bunch of pride festivals. So that’s something that I’ve done in years past and really enjoyed. So if anyone listening has any “ins” that any pride festivals anywhere in Europe, you know, get me a plane ticket and a hotel room. I’m there, right? Like, I’d love to be there. But yeah, so whatever the opportunities that come up, you know, I think for everyone, right now, everything’s kind of a little in the air, because we none of us really have a firm grasp on when things are going to get back to normal. So I’m just kind of going with the flow in that respect, trying to keep releasing new music, you know, start touring and performing out again when I can and just take it one day at a time.
Bronwyn Bidwell 28:15
Well Norwood I hope you’re right. I hope you’re singing next year over here in Europe, at the pride festivals. I mean, that would be fantastic. I think that’s what we’re all hoping for to to be able to enjoy 2022 with a sort of a carefree attitude. How can people get in touch with you if they want to know more about your teaching and the kind of classes that you offer? Where can they catch you?
So for the teaching, you can go to transitionsvoicelab.com. So that’s transitions with an S at the end voicelab.com. There you’ll find everything about the teaching side of things and classes and all of that stuff. And then if you’re interested in music and Norwood as the artist, you can go to norwood-music.com and you can find all my links there to Facebook and Instagram and Apple Music and Spotify and all that good stuff.
Bronwyn Bidwell 29:03
Well, that’s fantastic. Well listen, thanks so much and good luck with it all and hopefully we’ll we’ll see you and hear you next year.
Thank you so much Bronwyn I appreciate it.